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Post by mccoyed on Sept 3, 2014 8:10:04 GMT -8
I have a bit of a question as a newbie:
Is there a space where ideas and brainstorming on new guilds can be done freely? Is this the spot?
I have a lot of ideas for this stuff, especially for a Thieves' Guild (which I'm surprised LoR doesn't already have!).
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mandred
Garheim
Courage, Honor, Loyalty! For Garheim!
Posts: 73
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Post by mandred on Sept 3, 2014 8:47:34 GMT -8
Thieves is very similar to Assassin's. So I don't know if it is possible.
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Gavin of Lockwood
Outlaws
"Crazy? I was crazy once. They put me in a blue room."
Posts: 152
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Post by Gavin of Lockwood on Sept 3, 2014 9:45:31 GMT -8
My entry to the Mages' Guild J1 - show your character escaping from those who hate magic. A Lucky Break by IronBricks, on Flickr
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Post by mccoyed on Sept 3, 2014 12:10:56 GMT -8
Thieves is very similar to Assassin's. So I don't know if it is possible. I completely disagree so let me try to make a case here. Taking Skyrim as a point of inspiration, it's easy to see how they are conceptually and functionally different. After all, assassins are all about killing people while thieves could be expected to be about stealing from them. Consider an example of how a Thieves' Guild progression could work in LoR, based mostly on Skyrim's repeatable, "radiant" Thieves' Guild quests: THIEVES GUILD
Apprentice - 3 MOCS: 1) Show your character being recruited by or seeking out fellow thieves in a sketchy part of town (rowdy pub, dark alley, abandoned sewer) 2) Show your character doing a petty act of larceny: pickpocketing, picking a lock, or cutting a purse, stealing something from a house, etc. 3) Show your character getting caught! Journeyman - 3 MOCS: 1) Show your character escaping from jail using their thieving skills (tools, cunning, stealth, etc) 2) Show your character evading the authorities (hiding, disguise, etc). 3) Show your character celebrating with other thieves and planning a big job. Master - 3 MOCS: 1) Show your character casing or infiltrating a guarded location protecting a valuable item. 2) Show your character stealing the item, maybe with help and maybe alone. 3) Show your character on top of the world, enjoying the spoils of their efforts.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Sept 3, 2014 12:55:37 GMT -8
I would argue that, done from a certain perspective, the merchant's guild could pretty easily be completed from a thieving viewpoint Apprentice –3 MOCs:1) Your merchant with his trading cart/ship/means of transporting goods. - Whatever transportation device your thief uses to move his stolen goods - could be a sack, if you wanted.2) Your merchant acquiring his wares. - Suggest taking a liberal approach to interpreting the word, "acquiring". 3) Your merchant travelling through difficult conditions (snow storm, rough seas, endless desert, etc). - Doesn't have to be environmental - Making his way through a town full of guards?Journeyman – 3 MOCs:1) Defending your caravan/fleet from outlaws/thieves. - What's better than a thief robbing another thief??2) Your merchant trading in a foreign land. - "Trading" as in hawking his stolen wares?3) Encountering a competitor. - Rival thief. A race to steal a certain object?Master – 3 MOCs:1) Smuggling some sort of contraband out of or into a secure area. - This should be obvious. Could easily build on the story from J3 above 2) Dealing with a trade gone wrong. - Heist gone wrong?3) Showing your wealth acquired as a result of your trading career. - Rolling in your piles of gold or admiring your stolen art collection?What do you think?
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lilcurt
Outlaws
Back Home, Somewhere along the Lenfeld, Garheim Border Preparing for winter :)
Posts: 1,041
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Post by lilcurt on Sept 3, 2014 13:32:48 GMT -8
So not to change subject cause I see both points. However is there going ro ne seperate subforums for each guild? As it sits I have to read through the whole thread to find info on all the guilds. Seems it would be good to split them into seperate forums like we do for factions.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Sept 3, 2014 14:08:00 GMT -8
Info for all the guilds is contained in the first post of this thread. At this point I am going to keep everything contained in this thread, since it makes it a lot easier for us to update the completion list if there is only one thread to check for entries, and it's not like we are overflowing with activity over here...
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Post by mccoyed on Sept 3, 2014 14:25:29 GMT -8
I would argue that, done from a certain perspective, the merchant's guild could pretty easily be completed from a thieving viewpoint Apprentice –3 MOCs:1) Your merchant with his trading cart/ship/means of transporting goods. - Whatever transportation device your thief uses to move his stolen goods - could be a sack, if you wanted.2) Your merchant acquiring his wares. - Suggest taking a liberal approach to interpreting the word, "acquiring". 3) Your merchant travelling through difficult conditions (snow storm, rough seas, endless desert, etc). - Doesn't have to be environmental - Making his way through a town full of guards?Journeyman – 3 MOCs:1) Defending your caravan/fleet from outlaws/thieves. - What's better than a thief robbing another thief??2) Your merchant trading in a foreign land. - "Trading" as in hawking his stolen wares?3) Encountering a competitor. - Rival thief. A race to steal a certain object?Master – 3 MOCs:1) Smuggling some sort of contraband out of or into a secure area. - This should be obvious. Could easily build on the story from J3 above 2) Dealing with a trade gone wrong. - Heist gone wrong?3) Showing your wealth acquired as a result of your trading career. - Rolling in your piles of gold or admiring your stolen art collection?What do you think? I get what you're saying in terms of interpretation being possible here. I actually thought that subverting the Heroes' Guild with thieving tropes and themes would be a fun project. However, I see this as being something we can approach in two ways, as with anything else in LoR: 1. Is it appropriate in a narrative sense (characterization, storytelling, etc)? 2. Is it appropriate in a building sense (MOCs, fitting into LoR's mandate, etc)? It seems to me that if the argument is that a Thieves' Guild isn't different enough from Assassins or Merchants, then why have separate guilds at all? One could easily reinterpret any of the Guilds and merge them into each other. That is unless the actual building requirements are different enough that they command a different set of skills, themes, etc. That would be necessary to justify a Thieves' Guild, or any new Guild, in my opinion. Further, it's definitely possible and even desirable due to the prominence of Thieves' Guilds in fantasy fiction. I mean, they are just as classic a trope as Mages' Guilds or Mercantile Guilds. Having an Assassins' Guild but no Thieves' Guild just feels strange to me! Beyond this, my argument can also include the premise that the more the merrier in terms of Guilds simply because more themes, goals, etc means more builds, more ideas, and more expansion of the LoR world. I also feel that, and this may just be me, some characters won't be suited to any of these Guilds as is. And that's without getting into having the same character become a Master of Everything. Jackdaw Quinn, my sigfig, wouldn't become a Mage or Assassin or Pirate Captain, you know? She's a thief. Even if she became a Master Thief early in her career as an adventurer, and then went on to become a Hero or even went darkside as a Mage, it would not make much sense for her to also be a Merchant or Mason, right? Credibility starts to sort of break down.
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lilcurt
Outlaws
Back Home, Somewhere along the Lenfeld, Garheim Border Preparing for winter :)
Posts: 1,041
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Post by lilcurt on Sept 3, 2014 14:45:16 GMT -8
No problem jordan, thanks for letting me know about it. As soon as I get rank of citizen I will be going for masons guild and navel guild to start with
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Sept 3, 2014 16:41:34 GMT -8
Definitely some good points. A thieves guild has definitely been brought up in the past and will likely find its way into implementation at some point. We did just add two new guilds (Assassins and Naval), so we probably will wait a little while before adding new ones. In the mean time, feel free to build up the lore of your character with as many free builds as you want. You could even work your way through the task list you outlined earlier, but do them as free builds instead of guild builds for now
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jman44
Guild Masters
Posts: 82
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Post by jman44 on Sept 3, 2014 18:30:21 GMT -8
I would argue that, done from a certain perspective, the merchant's guild could pretty easily be completed from a thieving viewpoint Apprentice –3 MOCs:1) Your merchant with his trading cart/ship/means of transporting goods. - Whatever transportation device your thief uses to move his stolen goods - could be a sack, if you wanted.2) Your merchant acquiring his wares. - Suggest taking a liberal approach to interpreting the word, "acquiring". 3) Your merchant travelling through difficult conditions (snow storm, rough seas, endless desert, etc). - Doesn't have to be environmental - Making his way through a town full of guards?Journeyman – 3 MOCs:1) Defending your caravan/fleet from outlaws/thieves. - What's better than a thief robbing another thief??2) Your merchant trading in a foreign land. - "Trading" as in hawking his stolen wares?3) Encountering a competitor. - Rival thief. A race to steal a certain object?Master – 3 MOCs:1) Smuggling some sort of contraband out of or into a secure area. - This should be obvious. Could easily build on the story from J3 above 2) Dealing with a trade gone wrong. - Heist gone wrong?3) Showing your wealth acquired as a result of your trading career. - Rolling in your piles of gold or admiring your stolen art collection?What do you think? I get what you're saying in terms of interpretation being possible here. I actually thought that subverting the Heroes' Guild with thieving tropes and themes would be a fun project. However, I see this as being something we can approach in two ways, as with anything else in LoR: 1. Is it appropriate in a narrative sense (characterization, storytelling, etc)? 2. Is it appropriate in a building sense (MOCs, fitting into LoR's mandate, etc)? It seems to me that if the argument is that a Thieves' Guild isn't different enough from Assassins or Merchants, then why have separate guilds at all? One could easily reinterpret any of the Guilds and merge them into each other. That is unless the actual building requirements are different enough that they command a different set of skills, themes, etc. That would be necessary to justify a Thieves' Guild, or any new Guild, in my opinion. Further, it's definitely possible and even desirable due to the prominence of Thieves' Guilds in fantasy fiction. I mean, they are just as classic a trope as Mages' Guilds or Mercantile Guilds. Having an Assassins' Guild but no Thieves' Guild just feels strange to me! Beyond this, my argument can also include the premise that the more the merrier in terms of Guilds simply because more themes, goals, etc means more builds, more ideas, and more expansion of the LoR world. I also feel that, and this may just be me, some characters won't be suited to any of these Guilds as is. And that's without getting into having the same character become a Master of Everything. Jackdaw Quinn, my sigfig, wouldn't become a Mage or Assassin or Pirate Captain, you know? She's a thief. Even if she became a Master Thief early in her career as an adventurer, and then went on to become a Hero or even went darkside as a Mage, it would not make much sense for her to also be a Merchant or Mason, right? Credibility starts to sort of break down. Hi there mccoyed, (AK answered before I could post this but I'll elaborate You bring up many good points. So to start, I'd like to mention that when Jordan and I worked on creating the two new guilds, the possibility of a Thieves Guild was brought up. However to make it as broad as the other guilds, the overlap did run into the Assassin's and Merchants guild and having that overlap wouldn't make any sense at all. The whole premise behind the ability of reinterpreting the guilds the way you want is to fit your personal storyline. This also means that it fits whether you are a "good" character or a "bad" one. Note that the Heroes guild doesn't mean you are a "good" hero, you're a hero for whichever side/group you're apart of. Therefore the reasoning behind not having a thieves guilds at the moment is that it would be 1- hard to make it broad enough where it doesn't cross over anywhere and 2- it has the stereotype of "bad" guys. It would be kind of hard to make it a good guild without messing up those two things. We tailored the Assassins guild because of the amount of interest in assassins and the amount of characters that call themselves one so why not give them something. In the meantime I personally think that Jordan had an awesome way of taking a thieves way of the merchants guild. So you could always do that if you dont want to wait. And I noticed you pointed out a plot hole of the Guild Hall that it doesn't make sense if everyone can be a master at everything. But I think you need to remember that this is a roleplaying game so everyone can make their stories fit each guild and how you show your character going from one guild to the other is just as important as your building. The likelihood of that many people reaching "master of all guilds" is very very small. If you were to follow the rules and submit two builds a month, it would take you 2 years and 3 months to do so. My last point is to add in that participating in the Guild Hall is completely optional. It is a way for players to have fun, expand their stories as well as the whole of LoR, add more personal points than the free builds , challenge players in their building abilities. Thanks for reading and welcome to LoR! Joe
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Post by mccoyed on Sept 3, 2014 20:18:51 GMT -8
Thanks for discussing this with me, fellas, but don't get the wrong idea: I'm not in any rush here. I understand that you guys have a lot on your plates and I'm only trying to propose some ideas. I'm not demanding a Thieves' Guild be added right this second and it would be presumptuous at best for me to do so. Please don't be hasty about the possibilities is all I ask! I do reject the two ideas I keep hearing: that Thieves are somehow inherently too immoral or inherently too similar to other guilds. 1. There's a time-honored tradition of altruistic "good guy" thieves. Robin Hood? Plus, guys, say it with me: Assassins kill people. This should meet the requirement that Thieves (like other guilds) be subject to the morality of the characters, thus achieving the narrative approach I described earlier.
2. I think I ably demonstrated, with not much time or effort as yet, that Thieves can functionally (in terms of builds required) stand on their own. Imagine if we all put some thought into it. I think new guilds, including Thieves, can achieve the functional approach (distinctive style so there's not much, if any, overlap) I described earlier. But I think I am starting to repeat myself here so I'll leave the matter rest there. I do hope to see a Thieves' Guild eventually, and other guilds too!
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jman44
Guild Masters
Posts: 82
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Post by jman44 on Sept 3, 2014 21:27:58 GMT -8
This needs to go to PMs at this point. Please keep discussions light and fun! -AK_Brickster
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Fritzix
Outlaws
Champion of the Brawl
conspiring
Posts: 113
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Post by Fritzix on Sept 6, 2014 4:25:06 GMT -8
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Gideon
Loreos
For the glory of Loreos!
Posts: 148
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Post by Gideon on Sept 6, 2014 11:41:02 GMT -8
Weather forecast: Cloudy with traffic jams Great idea! I went with the boring old desert for my A3 build, should try to photograph it some day this week.
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