Sir Daren
Lenfald
Training men and looking for work
Posts: 260
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Post by Sir Daren on Feb 13, 2018 13:44:18 GMT -8
Based upon the ongoing discussion of new scoring system to directly affect the game. A few players volunteered to make builds and then post along with how their builds would score in the discussed rules. This is meant as a constructive observation where players can discuss and thus refine a new scoring system, and where players like me can better understand how this all works. Thanks for everyone who is able to help with this!
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Merc
Garheim
Posts: 143
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Post by Merc on Mar 7, 2018 13:12:17 GMT -8
Here is my proposal. Rules:About the EconomyCertain buildings produce Buildings | Resource Type | Agriculture/Aquaculture | Food | Lumber/Mills | Wood | Quarries/Prospecting | Stone | Economical Buildings (taverns, blacksmith shops, etc) | Gold |
Each faction gets a bonus to a particular resource. Faction | Resource | Bonus | Garheim | Stone | x3 | Lenfald | Woods | x3 | Loreos | Food | x3 | Outlaws | Gold | x3 |
Each resource has a cost and produces a set amount based on size. Size | Cost | Produces | Points Produced | Bignette
| 1 Wood
| 1 Resource
| 1 Point | Restricted | 2 Wood / 3 Stone
| 2 Resource | 2 Points | Unrestricted | 3 Wood / 5 Stone
| 3 Resource | 4 Points |
All builds produce this month are added to the person's resources next month. A faction gains its own independent resources. These resources are generated from faction owned production units NOT player production units. i.e If the faction of Lenfald owned a lumber mill, the faction(government) would collect those resources not players. About Castles and ArmiesCastles and Armies produce defense not raw materials. Army requires Food and Gold Castles and Military buildings require Wood and Stone Army Buildings Size | Food | Gold | Defense Bonus | Points Produced | Bignette | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Restricted | 3 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Unrestricted | 4 | 7 | 4 | 4 |
Castles Size | Wood | Stone | Defense Bonus | Points Produced
| Bignette | 2 | 3 | 4 | 1 | Restricted | 3 | 5 | 8 | 2 | Unrestricted | 4 | 7 | 12 | 4 |
Military buildings and Armies DO NOT generate a cumulative bonus. The bonus they give is static and may ONLY increase through builds. Note: if you cannot pay for the cost of a building, a personal may submit it for personal points. However any person in the faction may pay the cost to "activate it" and recieve the normal benefits of having the building. About Fiefs
Every country in LoR is made up of fiefs. While anyone can build a property in any of the established cities, only those that hold the rank of “knight’ or higher are allowed to apply for the creation of a new a fief. All players are allowed to build in faction owned fiefs. There are five currently five levels of fiefdom. A fief advances in level once it surpasses the maximum number of properties completed in the fief and has achieved parity (see below). Below are the fief sizes and statistics. NB: Point requirements show the cumulative (running total) number of points required. Fief Size | Level | Food | Wood | Stone | Gold | Military | Max Number of Castles/Fotresses | Hamlet | 1 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 2 | 3 | Row 2 column 8 | Village | 2 | 6 | 5 | 2 | 3 | 5 | Row 3 column 8 | Town | 3 | 10 | 10 | 5 | 5 | 8 | Row 4 column 8 | Large Town | 4 | 14 | 14 | 7 | 8 | 12 |
| City | 5 | 18 | 20 | 10 | 12 | 18 | Row 5 column 8 |
Lordship Every fief has a lord. A builder can only be the lord of one city, even if he/she has a secondary character About Other Types of BuildsEach build category in LoR has its place both in personal prestige and in the factions overall standing. Free builds: 2 per month 2 personal points per build. 2 points go to both the player and the faction. Free builds per Town: 2 per month must be production buildings or Army buildings only Guild Builds: Each level produces points for player and faction. Each level should also be acknowledged by the faction. A bonus 2 gold per month per faction per master of a guild. Global Builds: 1 nation hosts (in theory there is one per month) builds count for both person and faction. Brawls: player can wager personal points with each other to a max of 5. Winner gets all the points and faction gets points as well. Faction points can be used to Upgrade fiefs/cities At 10 faction points - faction gets a resource building of their choosing At 50 faction points - faction gets a resource building of their choosing At 100 faction points - faction gains defensive structure (+5 faction defense rating) Purchase land (?) Found new towns Possible Scenario: Month 1 Player | Food | Wood | Stone | Gold | Points (Personal/Factional) | Garheim | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 76 | Jahrton | 5 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 0 | Merc | 1 | 2 | 5 | 1 | 17 |
I have decided to build a lumber build. Garheim/Merc/Lumber/BignetteLC Logging / Bignette by Mike Mercado, on Flickr This build produces 1 wood. I have 1 wood so I can create this and activate it giving me 1 personal point and the faction 1 personal point. As a result, I will accumulate 1 wood starting next month. This leaves me with 1 wood left over I also decide that I want to build a market. Garheim/Merc/Market/RestrictedGCXII-Res by Mike Mercado, on Flickr This is a restricted market place. I have 1 wood and 5 stone so a I am not able to activate it. Right now it only gives me the personal points associated with the build size. No factional points are awarded, nor is any resource given. I would appeal to either the town of Jahrton, the faction of Garheim or other players. If someone decided to give me the resource it giving me 3 gold starting next month. In addition the faction would receive points based on the size of the build. The faction decides to give me the extra wood. Month 2 Player | Food | Wood | Stone | Gold | Points | Garheim | 4 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 79 | Jahrton | 5 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 0 | Merc | 1 | 1 | 5 | 3 | 20 |
This is the new sheet for next month. I gained 1 wood form the lumber mill and 2 gold from my market. Additionally both the faction and myself earned 3 points. This ends my proposal. Note that it is welcome to be changed, ammended, etc. C and C is always welcome.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Mar 7, 2018 16:14:01 GMT -8
Oh man, I like this! I'm not *fully* able to grasp how the town and faction gain resources, separate from the individual, or how those City/Faction resources are spent other than to "sponsor" builders who don't have enough personal resources. Can you clarify a little? I think this is a pretty cool starting point. Cuahchic - do you think that baldwinoftoberg would be able to compile stats like this or would each player be responsible for keeping their own tally, and then the faction leadership would have to update the cities and faction resources monthly?
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Merc
Garheim
Posts: 143
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Post by Merc on Mar 7, 2018 20:22:43 GMT -8
Think of the faction as a bank. It's role will be to support the players of the faction. This mostly helps smaller factions be able to build and keep up with a larger player faction. Additionally it is kinda like insurance for the memebers. Should a war happen and a player lose most of his properties because of the war, the faction can help jump start that player. In many ways it's there to prevent player frustration and abandonment of LoR. Additionally Factions can build up unMOCed infrastructure and armies (normal 2 rule still applies). It does not gain any points for this but rather it has the ability to increase its resources.
The city is a smaller scale version of this. Also it will help to offset player abandonment. Should a player move on and choose to not participate for an extended period of time, the city (fief) can still flourish.
Again this is my take. Hope this helps.
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Sir Daren
Lenfald
Training men and looking for work
Posts: 260
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Post by Sir Daren on Mar 7, 2018 21:50:22 GMT -8
Think of the faction as a bank. The city is a smaller scale version of this. Also it will help to offset player abandonment. Should a player move on and choose to not participate for an extended period of time, the city (fief) can still flourish. Cool!! Thank you Merc! This really helped put this into perspective for me! I really like the faction idea, as players can help each other out in game without having to do a whole build (unless they wanted to). Honestly, I really like this system, with only one possible exception. The city idea is also good for a city AND a player's resources, as a player can only have a fief (and thus a town/city) once they achieve a certain rank. That way non-fief members can collect resources themselves. Now for the cons about "City/Fief". Having separate points for the city AND the player might be confusing to some new players (opinions everyone?). The other thought: do we want to require a rank level for a fief? If I am building stuff, I would want to be able to build in my "fief" even though I am many points away from being an actual lord and having a fief. What might be better would be if past a certain rank you can have an additional "fief", and later get another one past an even higher rank. Otherwise, I like this system. It doesn't seem over complex to me personally, and though it doesn't take into account war schematics, I like this alot!
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Mar 8, 2018 8:13:56 GMT -8
I like the idea of a rank requirement for a fief. New players can help build existing cities until they've earned the wealth and prestige to start a fief.
Alternately instead of a rank, you could require fiefs be purchased with a set number of resources, paid to the faction, which would have a similar affect as above.
Keeping track of what has been built for each player, city, and fief each month seems to be the biggest hurdle we'd have to tackle for the proposed system.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Mar 8, 2018 8:20:01 GMT -8
Also, it still wasn't clear to me how the NPC cities and faction gain resources. Are they donated to by players? Or do they own their own resource generating facilities?
Should there be a resource storage cap for players and they have to build silos or warehouses to increase their storage caps?
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Merc
Garheim
Posts: 143
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Post by Merc on Mar 8, 2018 15:27:44 GMT -8
Also, it still wasn't clear to me how the NPC cities and faction gain resources. Are they donated to by players? Or do they own their own resource generating facilities? Should there be a resource storage cap for players and they have to build silos or warehouses to increase their storage caps? So I tries to keep the system simple on so that it didn't intimidate new players. If there is a large enough consensus to have a cap unless a storage place is made then was can add that in. As for NPC cities/ factions, the factions points is what "buys" the production building. Once the building is bough it would be under the control of the nation and collect resources on their own as usual. Sir Daren Thank you, I'm glad it is appealing. the rational behind separating fiefs from people is that not all people will want to play in the economic system. In this way, they can contribute to a city if they want but are not tied down to the city. It also frees up the players character (the current system allows for two one main and one secondary). Again these are my thoughts. I am open to change if people contribute. Also I will edit my post from time to time to reflect what has been discussed.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Mar 8, 2018 19:20:48 GMT -8
Ah, OK. So the faction points factor into environmental prowess.
IE, something like:
At 10 faction points - faction gets a resource building of their choosing At 50 faction points - faction gets a resource building of their choosing At 100 faction points - faction gains defensive structure (+5 faction defense rating) Etc, etc.
Also, I would propose that military points don't increase monthly like resources do, but rather just add a base score to your military rating. After all, soldiers don't multiply on a monthly basis, but rather the garrison remains established, and is expanded or added to over time by the construction of additional fortifications/encampments/etc.
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Merc
Garheim
Posts: 143
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Post by Merc on Mar 9, 2018 11:16:16 GMT -8
Ah, OK. So the faction points factor into environmental prowess. IE, something like: At 10 faction points - faction gets a resource building of their choosing At 50 faction points - faction gets a resource building of their choosing At 100 faction points - faction gains defensive structure (+5 faction defense rating) Etc, etc. That's exactly what I was thinking! I would agree with this. I know i didn't explicitly say this but military should increase unless someone builds it. Just a general note, I tried to leave this open for a military system. I an not confident in my skills to try to create a complimentary military system.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Mar 9, 2018 12:34:02 GMT -8
We can always roll out military stuff in an update. Lay the groundwork and then do a 2.0 launch once people get comfortable with the economic system.
I like the way you have this laid out so far. Would like to get feedback from more of the group as well.
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Post by Cuahchic on Mar 11, 2018 5:35:00 GMT -8
Really great work Merc, I think this has a lot of great features and summarises well with what was discussed in other threads. The things I like are: - Four resources (food/wood/gold/stone) provide some variety without being too complicated.
- Players can still build whatever they want if they don't have the resources, but it only generates points when you have enough resources to "activate" it. This will hopefully not put players off.
- There are ways to spend both wood/stone (on buildings) and food/gold (on armies).
Questions I have are:
- How does a faction come to own a building which generates resources?
- Why would we want to limit guild/free builds? If players want to build, I'd say let them. All we need to ensure is there are of a certain quality, so before points are added I think there should be some sort of nomination system (i.e. one player from another faction has to approve the build before points added) - this is not elitism but purely to avoid low quality spam (fig on a plate, etc).
- Do army buildings cost food and gold every month or only as a one off?
What I think will make or break this (as is the case any any, e.g. computer game, that uses these systems) is how they are balanced between factions. I do agree that factions should have bonuses over particular resources but I think careful consideration needs to be given to prevent one faction from steaming ahead.
Example 1: economy buildings require more stone than wood, as do castles. Since Garheim earn more stone does that put them at an advantage over Lenfald, who would have to build way more mines to reach the same resource level. Would it be better to reduce the stone requirement on economy buildings?
Example 2: army buildings require more gold than food. Since the Outlaws earn more gold does that put them at an advantage over Loreos, who would have to build way more markets to reach the same resource level. Would it be better to give food another use, as presently this is the only way you can spend it?[...] Cuahchic - do you think that baldwinoftoberg would be able to compile stats like this or would each player be responsible for keeping their own tally, and then the faction leadership would have to update the cities and faction resources monthly? There is absolutely no reason why baldwinoftoberg couldn't keep track of points/resources at multiple levels - e.g. faction/fief/player. As long as once all of the levels are defined we agree on a common post structure to distinguish them then they can be automatically picked up.
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Merc
Garheim
Posts: 143
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Post by Merc on Mar 18, 2018 18:01:07 GMT -8
I don't want to let this discussion die so I will try to answer these questions. I think what was talked about was that factions can use there factional points to buy these buildings. Of course which building may be up to the players within the faction. This is going off of the original rules which stated only two free builds per month. I think that quality builds is what we are all looking for. Im not tied to this rule, its more of something that was put into place before my time and I simply included it. I would assume that it is a one off though there can be an argument that there needs to be a constant flow of food and gold for an army to be continually sustained. In both scenarios I am not opposed to changing. I used some numbers to just be consistent.
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Post by eveningtoast on Mar 19, 2018 7:48:25 GMT -8
I really like the ideas everyone have laid out. I've always loved LOR, I'm not a very good MOC builder, which keeps me from building a lot. One thing I've always felt is that LOR was missing is consistency amongst factions, faction pages, faction members, etc. There is so much variance on how faction pages are setup, or how point systems are being tracked, and even seeing what MOC's have been built. I am worried this will be exacerbated with introducing a complex (albeit slightly) system for resources, faction resources, and player levels/fiefdoms. Is there a plan to handle this increased information/complexity with some level of consistency? Please understand, I am not dragging any players, faction leaders, or factions for not being consistent -- it's just something I like.
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AK_Brickster
Innkeeper
Scouting the Lenfel Border
Posts: 3,272
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Post by AK_Brickster on Mar 19, 2018 14:05:49 GMT -8
I agree that the individual factions aren't all managed equally. That's mostly due to each faction being led by a different person or persons, and each person having their own way of handling things, some probably better or more efficient than others.
I also agree that keeping track of an added layer of mechanics is the biggest hurdle we will face with the proposed changes, and that's why Cuahchic has been working on some "NPC" auto-tabulation of entries.
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